WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.360 00:00:17.206 --> 00:00:17.426 Fits. 00:00:20.006 --> 00:00:25.326 Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io bringing you another 00:00:25.326 --> 00:00:28.146 episode from the German-speaking entrepreneurship scene. 00:00:28.586 --> 00:00:32.726 Today I would like to welcome Wolfgang here with me. Hey Wolfgang, how are you doing? 00:00:33.406 --> 00:00:36.866 Hi, lovely to be at this podcast. 00:00:37.506 --> 00:00:41.946 Totally my pleasure. Before we dive into startups and investment philosophy, 00:00:42.286 --> 00:00:47.386 let's zoom out. DACH is becoming one of Europe's strongest engines for green tech innovation. 00:00:48.006 --> 00:00:54.466 And High Innoff's Green Tech Mapping 2025 gives us an inside look at what's coming next. 00:00:54.706 --> 00:00:58.606 So Wolfgang, let's get into the data, the deals and the future. 00:01:00.606 --> 00:01:07.086 Maybe before we do that, could you tell us just a tiny bit about who you are 00:01:07.086 --> 00:01:13.826 and what you do and what high enough is before we get into what you really did with green techs there. 00:01:14.626 --> 00:01:23.686 Absolutely. So we are a German-French B2B venture fund. We mainly focus on Series A investments. 00:01:23.786 --> 00:01:29.986 We are on the market now for more than 10 years, just investing our third generation. 00:01:30.326 --> 00:01:38.186 We specialize on deep tech and true B2B technology. So everything which helps 00:01:38.186 --> 00:01:43.426 enterprises to become more digital, become more efficient. This is our investment themes. 00:01:44.066 --> 00:01:48.506 Basically, we invest in five main area. One, obviously, we are going to talk 00:01:48.506 --> 00:01:50.146 about that is screen tech. 00:01:50.426 --> 00:01:56.026 We do what we call compliance. So leveraging all the European regulation and 00:01:56.026 --> 00:01:59.706 what kind of interesting business models coming out of that. 00:02:00.586 --> 00:02:07.426 We traditionally, as a team, we have a deep expertise in everything, which is data, big data. 00:02:07.686 --> 00:02:14.286 You know, obviously now with AI, things are moving quite quickly and really shaping the industry. 00:02:14.546 --> 00:02:19.466 We do cyber, also a little bit with a defense angle. 00:02:19.706 --> 00:02:26.426 And then we do something what we call new work. New work is basically, you know, 00:02:26.686 --> 00:02:31.986 technologies who reshape the workspace, like, you know, remote working, 00:02:32.226 --> 00:02:39.246 collaborative tools, but also HR developments, because our thesis is that people, 00:02:39.246 --> 00:02:43.486 they just, you know, are looking for a sense in work, you know, 00:02:43.566 --> 00:02:47.006 probably a little bit different than 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. 00:02:47.006 --> 00:02:52.566 And so a lot of companies are also focusing on education and on, 00:02:52.566 --> 00:02:56.806 you know, other HR related topics. 00:02:57.066 --> 00:02:59.946 So these are our five main investment themes. 00:03:02.235 --> 00:03:06.295 I was wondering when I first read the pitch for the content, 00:03:06.475 --> 00:03:12.895 I was wondering what inspired you to do the screen tech software mapping? 00:03:13.995 --> 00:03:19.175 I assume it was not that you were bored and you didn't have already more than enough work. 00:03:19.315 --> 00:03:22.655 How did you get started? What was the trigger to do the screen tech mapping? 00:03:23.755 --> 00:03:27.615 Well, actually, this is not the first screen tech mapping we are doing. 00:03:27.615 --> 00:03:32.255 We did it two years ago in 2023 as well. 00:03:32.435 --> 00:03:38.435 At that time, it wasn't green tech. It was more called DACH Climate Tech Mapping, which kind of evolved. 00:03:38.795 --> 00:03:45.175 I think for us, it's very important to understand the industries we would like 00:03:45.175 --> 00:03:49.355 to invest and to understand the broader context, to understand the players, 00:03:49.555 --> 00:03:50.755 to understand the ecosystem. 00:03:51.235 --> 00:03:55.535 And we do that for all of our five investment areas. 00:03:56.215 --> 00:04:00.595 So green tech obviously is very important to us. And therefore, 00:04:00.695 --> 00:04:03.195 we just would like to have a good view on the market. 00:04:03.435 --> 00:04:08.895 And to be very frank, it's also kind of a marketing tool because we really want 00:04:08.895 --> 00:04:10.935 to tell the market, hey, we are there. 00:04:11.155 --> 00:04:13.075 We are interested in that space 00:04:13.075 --> 00:04:19.115 and we think there's a lot of interesting investments to do in this space. 00:04:20.295 --> 00:04:26.275 I assume we will link down here in the show notes to the Queen Tech software 00:04:26.275 --> 00:04:28.835 mapping, just having it here on the other screen. 00:04:29.635 --> 00:04:35.955 One of the big areas is carbon footprint monitoring with energy transition tools, 00:04:36.175 --> 00:04:41.815 with circular economy, raw materials optimization and corpo initiatives. 00:04:42.555 --> 00:04:46.635 Given that and that it already had a different name in the past, 00:04:47.155 --> 00:04:53.815 can you tell us from your perspective what were the three most surprising findings 00:04:53.815 --> 00:04:57.715 you had in 2025 versus 2023? 00:04:59.013 --> 00:05:05.173 Well, I think, and, you know, I really looked it up in 23 and looked at what really has changed. 00:05:05.313 --> 00:05:08.613 You know, obviously, is this a surprise? Probably it's not a surprise. 00:05:09.333 --> 00:05:12.993 The map got richer. You know, many more logos on the map. 00:05:13.913 --> 00:05:16.573 The ecosystem is really evolving quite a bit. 00:05:18.573 --> 00:05:25.333 But what's also interesting, you know, there's a reason why we did green tech software mapping. 00:05:25.533 --> 00:05:28.153 And at the time, we call it climate tech mapping. 00:05:29.013 --> 00:05:35.873 I think it also becomes clearer and clearer what are really the trends and the 00:05:35.873 --> 00:05:39.793 investment topics software investors could be interested in. 00:05:40.973 --> 00:05:48.553 When I basically, you know, two years ago, we had nine sectors and they were 00:05:48.553 --> 00:05:52.913 called recycling, reporting, deep tech, digital twin battery. 00:05:52.913 --> 00:06:01.153 So it basically was more like a mapping around specific solutions, 00:06:01.453 --> 00:06:02.553 specific technologies. 00:06:02.933 --> 00:06:09.173 But I think now, you know, the more the ecosystem evolving, it is clear that 00:06:09.173 --> 00:06:13.053 it's not so much about specific technologies. 00:06:13.053 --> 00:06:19.253 It's more about there is different areas, people trying to find solutions, 00:06:19.533 --> 00:06:23.673 you know, whether it's with technology, whether it's with, you know, other business models. 00:06:24.253 --> 00:06:29.853 And so I think the surprising or kind of the new methodology is more looking 00:06:29.853 --> 00:06:34.173 at from a user perspective rather from a technology perspective because we see 00:06:34.173 --> 00:06:35.873 real usage of these technologies. 00:06:37.318 --> 00:06:42.358 Talked about the real usage. We already talked about the different categories here. 00:06:43.298 --> 00:06:49.558 Which of those categories do you believe is gaining the fastest traction in the DACH area? 00:06:49.778 --> 00:06:58.038 Actually, that's kind of a tricky question because I think, and we even have 00:06:58.038 --> 00:06:59.398 real-life examples, and maybe 00:06:59.398 --> 00:07:03.138 later on a few examples, I can elaborate on these real-life examples. 00:07:03.318 --> 00:07:09.178 I think it all is kind of interwoven and kind of linked together, 00:07:09.498 --> 00:07:12.758 talking about carbon measurement. 00:07:13.878 --> 00:07:18.918 You would think it's very easy and very, very trivial to measure carbon, 00:07:19.758 --> 00:07:21.318 the carbon footprint. It's not. 00:07:21.618 --> 00:07:26.778 You know, just ask AWS and ask, you know, what's basically the carbon footprint 00:07:26.778 --> 00:07:29.338 of your data center. They don't know. They simply don't know. 00:07:30.098 --> 00:07:35.438 So, and when you don't have kind of the tools to measure impact, 00:07:35.438 --> 00:07:40.198 How, you know, can you achieve corporate sustainability? 00:07:41.158 --> 00:07:45.138 How can you really kind of achieve energy transition and circular economy? 00:07:45.398 --> 00:07:53.298 So I think what's happening right now is, you know, there's an underlying layer 00:07:53.298 --> 00:07:57.538 of measurements of technologies developed, you know, then obviously. 00:07:57.538 --> 00:08:02.918 And then on top of that, you know, once they really understand the problem, 00:08:03.418 --> 00:08:05.978 new technologies emerge to solve these problems. 00:08:06.258 --> 00:08:13.798 So I wouldn't really make a bet, you know, what of these four areas are growing the fastest. 00:08:14.738 --> 00:08:16.098 Put it like this. 00:08:17.158 --> 00:08:22.138 When you look at market volume, you know, obviously energy transition is a huge 00:08:22.138 --> 00:08:28.818 market. You know, it's a multi-billion euro market and it's huge investment model. 00:08:28.998 --> 00:08:33.338 When it comes about carbon measurement, you know, these are kind of software, 00:08:33.618 --> 00:08:35.138 you know, which are used. 00:08:35.318 --> 00:08:41.858 But so when you look at, I wouldn't call that as big as a market as carbon as energy transition. 00:08:42.118 --> 00:08:45.638 So I think when it comes to volume, you know, obviously there's a difference. 00:08:45.758 --> 00:08:49.358 But what's going to be most active and picking up? Hard to say. 00:08:52.622 --> 00:08:54.282 Mm-hmm, I see. 00:08:56.622 --> 00:09:03.482 I was wondering for our audience, if you're building green tech startup in the 00:09:03.482 --> 00:09:07.742 DACH region or want to invest in one, drop your thoughts in the comment. 00:09:08.002 --> 00:09:12.562 What trends do you believe will dominate by 2026? 00:09:13.322 --> 00:09:16.622 Going a little bit into trends and technologies. 00:09:17.842 --> 00:09:25.102 What role is generative AI already play in green tech software and how do you see it evolving? 00:09:26.022 --> 00:09:34.602 I think that's a broader question because AI is just changing the way how to 00:09:34.602 --> 00:09:37.582 develop, how to propose software, 00:09:37.962 --> 00:09:43.982 how to structure software and how to go to market. That's the general trend. 00:09:44.542 --> 00:09:49.422 There's an entire layer of engineers, of software engineers and programmers 00:09:49.422 --> 00:09:52.582 which aren't used, you know, aren't necessary anymore. 00:09:53.122 --> 00:09:57.562 With AI, you can create wow effects to customers, even to investors. 00:09:57.922 --> 00:10:01.182 And when you really go under the cover, you understand, well, 00:10:01.302 --> 00:10:04.942 you know, it's basically a very smart application of an AI technology, 00:10:04.942 --> 00:10:09.662 you know, of an AI model in order to come up with answers, 00:10:09.942 --> 00:10:15.362 which are probably very nice to have, but probably not very kind of sustainable 00:10:15.362 --> 00:10:17.322 when it comes to a clear differentiator. 00:10:17.902 --> 00:10:21.622 So I think the market, especially when it comes to software investment, 00:10:21.902 --> 00:10:24.022 is changing dramatically right now. 00:10:24.402 --> 00:10:31.502 And obviously, that impacts screen tech software because, you know, 00:10:31.582 --> 00:10:37.122 it's so much easier on the one side to visualize. 00:10:37.782 --> 00:10:44.342 To get answers, to gather data, to really try to make sense out of what you're 00:10:44.342 --> 00:10:46.782 gathering, what you're trying to achieve. 00:10:47.202 --> 00:10:56.162 But on the other side, it's also a little bit tricky because you really have to think very hard, 00:10:56.402 --> 00:11:03.762 you know, what is really the value add you're offering to customers, you know, 00:11:03.882 --> 00:11:12.502 to the landscape, which goes beyond AI, because AI at the end of the day, 00:11:12.762 --> 00:11:16.102 I think it's more a tool. It's not a solution per se. 00:11:16.462 --> 00:11:20.262 So I think it's getting a little bit more complex when you think, 00:11:20.402 --> 00:11:22.862 you know, what's really the value proposition you want to invest. 00:11:23.642 --> 00:11:29.122 And that's true for green tech, you know, as well as for a lot of other kind of sectors. 00:11:33.330 --> 00:11:36.490 I have been observing this space for quite some time. 00:11:37.010 --> 00:11:41.930 And for example, what was one of the things that happened in the past was, 00:11:42.070 --> 00:11:45.670 for example, a cloud took over. 00:11:45.890 --> 00:11:50.550 And at one moment, everybody was a cloud first startup. I do believe that's 00:11:50.550 --> 00:11:53.710 now so essential. Nobody talks about that anymore. 00:11:54.010 --> 00:11:58.990 All startups are more or less cloud based. Do you think it will be the same 00:11:58.990 --> 00:12:03.490 way with AI that almost every startup in one way or another, 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:06.730 especially software, will include AI? 00:12:07.310 --> 00:12:12.530 Absolutely. I think it's always like, obviously, now when you have a pitch, 00:12:12.830 --> 00:12:18.650 when you get business plans, the headline is always AI. 00:12:19.290 --> 00:12:23.750 It seems like, you know, nobody even dares to ask for money or really build 00:12:23.750 --> 00:12:27.550 a business model if AI isn't in the headline. 00:12:29.030 --> 00:12:33.730 But at the end of the day, it's a technology. It's basically a technology which 00:12:33.730 --> 00:12:41.770 makes a lot of things easier, faster, which basically creates new opportunity. 00:12:42.150 --> 00:12:46.610 But at the end of the day, it's a tool and it will become a standard. 00:12:46.610 --> 00:12:49.950 It will become a standard, you know, in developing software. 00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:56.790 It will be a standard when you request information, when you create a user interface, 00:12:57.090 --> 00:12:58.110 a look and feel interface. 00:12:58.710 --> 00:13:02.750 And I'm pretty sure that in two or three years, um, 00:13:04.190 --> 00:13:10.730 The pitches won't have AI in the headline, but it will be deeply interwoven 00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:13.490 into any solutions startups offer. 00:13:14.550 --> 00:13:16.990 Talking about solutions here, 00:13:17.170 --> 00:13:24.790 you're also tracking startups using vertical software tools like DeepKey 00:13:25.470 --> 00:13:33.310 to meet ESG and CSRD requirements more effectively than horizontal platforms. 00:13:35.070 --> 00:13:39.690 Well, I think that's just, you know, how it is. 00:13:39.810 --> 00:13:44.310 I think if you really want to be successful, you have to be an expert in the 00:13:44.310 --> 00:13:48.830 domain you're doing, especially when it comes to data plays. 00:13:51.130 --> 00:13:54.870 And by the way, that's also the big opportunity startups have, 00:13:55.090 --> 00:13:59.170 you know, compared to all these horizontal players, the big Silicon Valley giants 00:13:59.170 --> 00:14:01.530 and the guys who develop the LLMs. 00:14:03.470 --> 00:14:09.950 Really having a specific industry expertise and really understanding the data 00:14:09.950 --> 00:14:12.990 sets and data requirements of that specific industry. 00:14:13.210 --> 00:14:18.910 In the case of Deepkey, that's really an investment we are very proud of because, 00:14:19.210 --> 00:14:25.630 you know, we don't call it startup anymore. It's a real scale-up. 00:14:26.410 --> 00:14:31.570 They are now the European-wide leader when it comes to measuring the carbon 00:14:31.570 --> 00:14:37.410 footprint in the building industry or the management of buildings. 00:14:37.650 --> 00:14:47.370 And that requires not only the ability to know how to measure a carbon footprint, how to display, 00:14:47.610 --> 00:14:53.590 how to organize it, but it also requires an in-depth knowledge of the industry. 00:14:53.590 --> 00:14:59.470 And typically, horizontal platforms simply don't do that. 00:15:00.814 --> 00:15:05.694 Because that's not what they are built for. They are general purpose platforms. 00:15:06.734 --> 00:15:10.634 And people probably would use it as a tool to build their own solution. 00:15:10.894 --> 00:15:14.934 But they really don't address a very, very specific industry. 00:15:15.234 --> 00:15:16.834 Actually, I've rarely seen that. 00:15:17.514 --> 00:15:23.094 So, you know, there is a premium for industry knowledge, sector knowledge. 00:15:23.434 --> 00:15:27.654 And you can build true market leaders when you have that knowledge. 00:15:27.654 --> 00:15:32.714 So your mapping is not only a graphics, it's also a document. 00:15:32.914 --> 00:15:40.454 And when I went through it, you mentioned 216,000 tons of CO2 savings impact. 00:15:40.814 --> 00:15:46.394 How did you calculate that? And what does it signal about the market maturity? 00:15:46.934 --> 00:15:51.914 Well, I have to say, when I read that, I was asking the question to myself. 00:15:51.914 --> 00:15:57.954 And then I really ask also my team, it's what DeepKey basically has on its website. 00:15:58.214 --> 00:16:00.574 So they track it very closely. 00:16:00.954 --> 00:16:05.034 They are together with another company. We have an output for a platform as 00:16:05.034 --> 00:16:08.474 H, one of our B Corp companies. 00:16:08.674 --> 00:16:13.174 And they are a first mover, obviously, because it's a solution to really track 00:16:13.174 --> 00:16:20.234 and to really kind of find a way how to measure carbon reductions. 00:16:20.914 --> 00:16:26.354 They have created a tool around that. And now, obviously, they publicly communicate 00:16:26.354 --> 00:16:28.534 about it. I think it's quite massive. 00:16:29.734 --> 00:16:33.534 And I think it's also a trusted number. 00:16:34.454 --> 00:16:40.134 You know, often, as said, you know, ask AWS what's their carbon footprint, 00:16:40.574 --> 00:16:48.354 you know, how much a gigabyte of data request really admits in carbon and CO2. 00:16:48.614 --> 00:16:51.334 It's pretty hard and pretty tough for them to say. 00:16:53.214 --> 00:16:56.434 At least at Deepkey, that was a focus early on. 00:16:57.178 --> 00:16:57.898 Mm-hmm. 00:16:59.898 --> 00:17:03.478 Let's talk a little bit about the DACH-specific context. 00:17:04.898 --> 00:17:09.818 Usually when you look into something like that, you see strengths and weaknesses 00:17:09.818 --> 00:17:11.798 in the DACH startup ecosystem. 00:17:12.038 --> 00:17:17.158 Where do you see that, especially when it comes to scaling innovations? 00:17:19.318 --> 00:17:25.798 I think what's specific, and obviously I can compare a little bit because we 00:17:25.798 --> 00:17:27.998 are equally investing in Germany and in France. 00:17:29.398 --> 00:17:33.818 I think in Germany, there's kind of this first mover mindset. 00:17:36.058 --> 00:17:41.478 And people, you know, embrace, have always embraced that very early on. 00:17:41.818 --> 00:17:46.698 For example, when I compared the DAG mapping in 2023 to the French mapping, 00:17:46.698 --> 00:17:51.038 I think I see a little bit more logos on the DAG side, you know, 00:17:51.078 --> 00:17:52.538 just, you know, a pure number game. 00:17:52.538 --> 00:17:57.258 So I think it's this mindset and really, you know, wanting to change something 00:17:57.258 --> 00:18:00.678 and really building technology solutions around that. 00:18:01.918 --> 00:18:05.778 So that's a very positive thing. You know, obviously, it's all across Europe. 00:18:06.238 --> 00:18:09.978 But somehow I have a feeling there's a special touch, you know, 00:18:10.038 --> 00:18:13.898 to the Dach market when it comes to this thing. 00:18:15.778 --> 00:18:21.958 In terms of scaling climate innovation, and I think we are also going to talk 00:18:21.958 --> 00:18:25.898 about that a little bit further down the road. 00:18:29.378 --> 00:18:39.838 At the end of the day, it's great to reduce carbon footprint. 00:18:39.838 --> 00:18:43.198 It's great to create a circular economy. 00:18:43.898 --> 00:18:48.978 It's great, you know, that corporates get, you know, more responsible and take 00:18:48.978 --> 00:18:53.058 care, you know, a few things probably they haven't done like 50 years ago. 00:18:53.258 --> 00:18:57.478 But at the end of the day, it really is after all its business, 00:18:57.698 --> 00:18:59.398 right? It's how to make money. 00:18:59.878 --> 00:19:06.158 And I think that's the biggest challenge, you know, and probably even in Germany, 00:19:06.458 --> 00:19:12.858 like people tend to think about the solution per se. 00:19:13.418 --> 00:19:19.338 Rather than is it really something which is sustainable but not sustainable 00:19:19.338 --> 00:19:24.318 in terms of ecology but economy because at the end of the day, 00:19:24.518 --> 00:19:29.398 you know, all the solutions have to make money, have to create a return. 00:19:29.798 --> 00:19:34.438 Otherwise, it's not sustainable. It's simply a lie to think that you can do 00:19:34.438 --> 00:19:36.858 stuff, you know, just for doing stuff. 00:19:37.038 --> 00:19:41.878 It needs to be economically viable, and I think that's the biggest challenge. 00:19:42.858 --> 00:19:46.418 We talked about challenges here, there's always regulation. 00:19:47.058 --> 00:19:53.738 Do you see the regulation currently as an opportunity or as a burden to Greentech founders? 00:19:57.178 --> 00:20:00.478 I think that's neutral. That really is neutral. 00:20:00.658 --> 00:20:07.118 I think regulation is grossly overrated when it comes to these things. 00:20:07.278 --> 00:20:09.438 Obviously, it can initiate thinking. 00:20:10.258 --> 00:20:14.458 Maybe there can be a little bit of a wave and create opportunities. 00:20:14.838 --> 00:20:22.818 But at the end of the day, I'm a deep believer that people should act freely 00:20:22.818 --> 00:20:26.778 and any regulation is an overlay. 00:20:27.178 --> 00:20:34.238 And when the overlay really, you know, just creates additional cost and complexity, 00:20:34.238 --> 00:20:35.718 that's probably not a good thing. 00:20:35.998 --> 00:20:40.258 So I would say it's neutral. 00:20:41.298 --> 00:20:44.978 For certain companies, that probably creates opportunities. 00:20:45.698 --> 00:20:49.278 But at the end of the day, well, we all know it. 00:20:49.558 --> 00:20:54.238 We do have a bureaucracy problem, and that doesn't stop in green tech. 00:20:57.558 --> 00:21:04.638 Yes, nicely said. We need the specific mapping. 00:21:04.958 --> 00:21:09.418 I was wondering, within the DACH region, when I was thinking this through, 00:21:09.598 --> 00:21:15.258 I didn't have a specific hub in mind, something like Berlin, Munich or Zurich. 00:21:15.678 --> 00:21:22.818 Do you see any of them or another one seen emerging as a green tech leader in software innovation? 00:21:23.658 --> 00:21:29.278 No, no. I think that's a nice thing about Germany. I'm investing in Germany now for 20 years. 00:21:32.318 --> 00:21:35.618 Good startups are all over the place. Obviously, there are clusters. 00:21:35.858 --> 00:21:38.758 There's a Munich cluster. There's a Berlin cluster. There's a Zurich cluster. 00:21:39.998 --> 00:21:42.658 Maybe there's kind of a Cologne cluster as well. 00:21:44.378 --> 00:21:49.678 But you can find great companies, even like in small places. 00:21:49.678 --> 00:21:56.998 It's pretty, it's pretty, what I put it like this, 00:21:57.238 --> 00:22:01.798 having a little bit also in Switzerland at a few conferences where they present 00:22:01.798 --> 00:22:07.998 solutions, it seems like Swiss people, they really do a lot when it comes to 00:22:07.998 --> 00:22:09.658 hardware related solutions. 00:22:11.627 --> 00:22:17.407 Munich is an engineering spot. We all know it, you know, has a great infrastructure, 00:22:18.227 --> 00:22:23.147 and a big kind of non-software place are played out in Munich as well. 00:22:23.847 --> 00:22:28.807 Berlin, it's clearly software centric. But is there a specific hub? 00:22:29.087 --> 00:22:32.607 You know, really never happened. 00:22:32.907 --> 00:22:38.447 You know, also when I look at my personal, you know, local investment, 00:22:38.847 --> 00:22:42.967 it's completely random. Great teams are all over the place, which, 00:22:43.047 --> 00:22:44.887 by the way, is the beauty about the DACH region. 00:22:45.827 --> 00:22:49.347 Ask the French. Ask the French. 00:22:50.547 --> 00:22:51.707 It's pretty clear. 00:22:52.327 --> 00:22:56.847 A lot concentrated in Paris. We'll be back after a short ad break with investment 00:22:56.847 --> 00:22:58.587 strategies and portfolio insights. 00:23:03.807 --> 00:23:08.767 Hey guys, welcome back to my interview with Wolfgang from High Enough on the 00:23:08.767 --> 00:23:11.727 Greentech DACH software mapping. 00:23:12.067 --> 00:23:17.127 We get exclusive insights from him and we're now talking about investment strategy 00:23:17.127 --> 00:23:18.667 and portfolio insights. 00:23:18.987 --> 00:23:24.307 Wolfgang, how does the Greentech mapping inform your deal flow and investment 00:23:24.307 --> 00:23:26.767 priorities at High Enough? 00:23:29.847 --> 00:23:34.027 Well, that's also a very generic question, which probably isn't 100% on green 00:23:34.027 --> 00:23:36.927 tape mapping, but it's basically, it shapes your way of thinking. 00:23:37.587 --> 00:23:43.047 It's always different to discuss or kind of to think you've understood something 00:23:43.047 --> 00:23:44.427 and to really bring it on paper. 00:23:45.067 --> 00:23:49.327 This is by the way, also why like when we do investments, people, 00:23:49.547 --> 00:23:56.927 you know, submit investment proposals in written form, like really plain English, 00:23:57.247 --> 00:24:01.527 you know, not kind of paste and copy of some PowerPoint slides, 00:24:01.527 --> 00:24:05.947 because the very moment you really have to bring down something written, 00:24:06.087 --> 00:24:11.667 you have to think, you know, and by the way, best example is that green tech mapping, 00:24:11.907 --> 00:24:15.087 which was called climate tech mapping two years ago. 00:24:15.587 --> 00:24:19.047 Now, really, we had to think, you know, how the market is evolving, 00:24:19.327 --> 00:24:21.847 are there new categories? Do we have new classifications? 00:24:22.767 --> 00:24:29.407 So so that it really is it's an exercise which kind of disciplines you and really makes you look, 00:24:29.907 --> 00:24:33.487 you know, very carefully in what you're really looking for, what are really 00:24:33.487 --> 00:24:39.447 kind of the major trends and what what really makes a difference and of what 00:24:39.447 --> 00:24:41.287 possibly could do a difference. 00:24:42.167 --> 00:24:47.287 You know, and then obviously it's a great tool because then you have a very 00:24:47.287 --> 00:24:54.567 concentrated period in really getting it right, you know, not forgetting everything. 00:24:55.396 --> 00:24:59.536 Pieces, you know, trying to have a full coverage, you know, probably, 00:24:59.696 --> 00:25:01.216 you know, obviously, you know, on our mapping, 00:25:01.476 --> 00:25:06.516 there isn't any, you know, 100% of possible greentech companies in the DACH 00:25:06.516 --> 00:25:11.496 region, but at least, you know, it kind of disciplines you what's really important, 00:25:11.636 --> 00:25:14.556 what could be potential winners or what are kind of people, 00:25:15.076 --> 00:25:17.036 our companies who are really setting trends. 00:25:17.396 --> 00:25:22.476 So I think it's very useful, especially when you work in a team and when you 00:25:22.476 --> 00:25:23.656 want to start a conversation. 00:25:23.876 --> 00:25:28.736 And then when you want to basically discuss business plans and really also, 00:25:28.916 --> 00:25:31.276 you know, what kind of direction you should look at. 00:25:32.016 --> 00:25:37.076 Yeah, we really like it. And as said, to be very frank, I pointed that out at 00:25:37.076 --> 00:25:39.096 the beginning of that podcast. 00:25:39.676 --> 00:25:45.536 It's also, you know, making us known a little bit more in the market. 00:25:46.296 --> 00:25:49.516 And, you know, just a little bit, a little explanation mark, 00:25:49.516 --> 00:25:51.756 hey, we are there and we are interested in this space. 00:25:56.296 --> 00:26:02.396 I see. Talk about investments. Can you walk us through the decision to invest 00:26:02.396 --> 00:26:05.796 in Trace for Good and how it aligns with your thesis? 00:26:08.156 --> 00:26:13.576 That comes a little bit back to what we were discussing previously. 00:26:13.576 --> 00:26:20.676 You know, what do you think about horizontal solutions versus verticalized solutions? 00:26:22.136 --> 00:26:27.996 We deeply believe that, you know, when you want to do a startup, 00:26:29.461 --> 00:26:32.661 Going horizontal is tricky. You know, you don't have the means, 00:26:32.901 --> 00:26:35.341 you know, obviously, and then you're competing against the big guys. 00:26:35.621 --> 00:26:39.701 So you really have to choose your vertical. But we also believe there will be 00:26:39.701 --> 00:26:41.641 always a leader in a specific vertical. 00:26:42.341 --> 00:26:45.121 And, you know, we've seen that with Deepkey, we've seen that, 00:26:45.221 --> 00:26:49.841 you know, with a few others of our investments, where basically really companies 00:26:49.841 --> 00:26:54.541 have chosen a vertical, became very good in it, and then become the market leader. 00:26:55.181 --> 00:27:02.641 And in the case of Trace for Good, obviously, you know, just to give a very 00:27:02.641 --> 00:27:07.421 brief explanation, what they do, basically, they track the supply chain in the textile industry. 00:27:08.001 --> 00:27:12.021 So basically, when you want to buy a T-shirt, you probably want to know, 00:27:12.201 --> 00:27:17.161 you know, from the very beginning, you know, what happened, you know, 00:27:17.261 --> 00:27:21.421 from the raw materials, you know, where it was done, et cetera, et cetera. 00:27:21.421 --> 00:27:24.941 It's a little bit, actually, it is a supply chain issue. 00:27:26.881 --> 00:27:33.661 And supply chain is a big issue, you know, obviously, now a little bit watered 00:27:33.661 --> 00:27:37.481 down with the latest twists in the US. 00:27:37.721 --> 00:27:41.461 But I think at the end of the day, that's a key question to be answered. 00:27:41.741 --> 00:27:48.401 And being good, you know, in a very specific niche and a very good vertical, 00:27:48.661 --> 00:27:53.761 this is a key thing. And then for us, it's a very early investment. 00:27:54.101 --> 00:28:00.621 We thought it's a great team, two young ladies who have a lot of experience in the space. 00:28:01.261 --> 00:28:03.081 And obviously, it's a French company. 00:28:04.141 --> 00:28:08.901 So textile, fashion, that's probably a French thing as well. 00:28:08.961 --> 00:28:12.101 So I think they are also very good positioned when it comes to that. 00:28:14.461 --> 00:28:22.601 How do you assess impact and commercial viability simultaneously than when you're 00:28:22.601 --> 00:28:25.261 evaluating those green tech software startups? 00:28:25.481 --> 00:28:26.321 We don't. 00:28:27.382 --> 00:28:31.582 We only evaluate commercial viability. 00:28:32.062 --> 00:28:38.582 To be crystal clear, and that's maybe also a misunderstanding, 00:28:38.582 --> 00:28:43.702 we don't do impact because we want to do impact. 00:28:44.182 --> 00:28:48.202 We think impact is a great way of making money. 00:28:49.022 --> 00:28:55.982 And that's what we are for because obviously we manage the funds of our investors 00:28:55.982 --> 00:28:59.502 and we really want to make sure that they get a nice return. 00:28:59.862 --> 00:29:02.602 We think impact is a trend theme. 00:29:03.022 --> 00:29:07.142 I think there are a lot of good opportunities to make money. 00:29:07.422 --> 00:29:11.642 But when we look at a company, it really must be ROI driven. 00:29:11.962 --> 00:29:16.342 It really must be part of a value chain. 00:29:16.642 --> 00:29:23.962 It really must solve a true economic problem and if that economic problem also 00:29:23.962 --> 00:29:27.962 solves an impact problem, even better. I just give an example. 00:29:29.982 --> 00:29:39.702 I did an investment just a couple of weeks ago in a Germany-based company south 00:29:39.702 --> 00:29:41.462 of Frankfurt called Xelera. 00:29:42.282 --> 00:29:46.342 With a little bit in a twinkle in an eye, I say they are a Nidvidia competitor. 00:29:46.342 --> 00:29:48.642 But actually, they really are. 00:29:49.082 --> 00:29:54.462 Basically, what they do, they do kind of a compiler for a chip, for an FPGA chip. 00:29:55.042 --> 00:30:01.622 FPGA chips are programmable chips, which help basically to dramatically increase 00:30:01.622 --> 00:30:04.122 the capacity of data centers. 00:30:04.122 --> 00:30:10.242 So basically, since there's so much traffic now hitting data centers with all 00:30:10.242 --> 00:30:14.222 this AI traffic, data centers are desperately looking for solutions, 00:30:14.222 --> 00:30:18.862 how to mitigate this traffic, offload traffic, still keep security. 00:30:19.122 --> 00:30:22.862 And Xelera is helping data centers doing that. 00:30:23.042 --> 00:30:29.482 So it's a really ROI case because basically data center traffic consumption 00:30:29.482 --> 00:30:32.962 goes down by 50, 60 percent by using that technology. 00:30:32.962 --> 00:30:39.042 But in addition, obviously, you know, when traffic for the same, you know, 00:30:39.582 --> 00:30:44.642 traffic hidden in a data center goes down by 50 percent, the CPE usage, 00:30:44.822 --> 00:30:50.102 you're suddenly saving 50, 60 percent of energy, you know, in a data center. 00:30:50.142 --> 00:30:52.602 So it has a huge impact as well. 00:30:52.862 --> 00:30:56.682 So would I call Xolera an impact investment? Probably not. 00:30:57.062 --> 00:31:01.222 It's more like a semiconductor investment, but it has a huge impact. 00:31:01.222 --> 00:31:06.622 It has a clear ROI case and this is why we also call it an impact investment. 00:31:08.009 --> 00:31:14.669 Mm-hmm. I see. For our audience, I would be wondering, what do you think, guys? 00:31:14.829 --> 00:31:17.749 Which matters more when investing in greentech? 00:31:17.989 --> 00:31:21.349 Measurable CO2 impact or scalable business models? 00:31:21.609 --> 00:31:24.329 Let us know how you decide. It's a hot debate. 00:31:26.189 --> 00:31:31.569 You are obviously an investor, and I do hope you do have some advice for founders. 00:31:32.489 --> 00:31:37.609 What's the mistake you see most often, not necessarily only in greentech founders 00:31:37.609 --> 00:31:45.529 but pitches you get and how do you fix them is it that they spray and pray and 00:31:45.529 --> 00:31:51.309 send their uh pitch deck everywhere and it it's not necessarily a fit with most of the investors 00:31:52.369 --> 00:32:00.109 Okay so just go maybe go first green tech and then a little bit more general 00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:06.609 so So, but then, you know, this green tech comment is already a general comment. 00:32:06.989 --> 00:32:16.129 Don't think that a product or a solution, you know, is fixing anything. It simply doesn't. 00:32:17.629 --> 00:32:25.529 It's also don't think that, you know, that you have developed something which 00:32:25.529 --> 00:32:28.949 solves a solution which really doesn't exist. 00:32:28.949 --> 00:32:34.289 Because that shockingly often is often the case. 00:32:34.509 --> 00:32:38.089 You know, people, you know, basically have kind of this theoretical idea that 00:32:38.089 --> 00:32:42.929 something needs to be solved and then they develop a product or kind of a solution 00:32:42.929 --> 00:32:47.969 around it and then in reality nobody needs it because it simply is only a theoretical 00:32:47.969 --> 00:32:49.509 problem, not a real-life problem. 00:32:49.729 --> 00:32:56.889 So I think, you know, obviously the key thing is when it really comes to kind 00:32:56.889 --> 00:33:03.389 of starting your startup or really get industry expertise and really try to 00:33:03.389 --> 00:33:07.069 solve a problem which exists and which creates ROI, 00:33:07.909 --> 00:33:11.849 which really, at least in B2B investing, which really, you know, 00:33:12.609 --> 00:33:18.189 as simple as that, you put out a piece of paper, you can go to a customer and 00:33:18.189 --> 00:33:22.029 you say, look, when you take my product, when you take my solution, 00:33:22.269 --> 00:33:27.449 you can save X in cost or you can get, you know, so much more nimble or you 00:33:27.449 --> 00:33:29.309 can gain so much more customers. 00:33:30.609 --> 00:33:32.769 And that really requires an 00:33:32.769 --> 00:33:37.869 in-depth knowledge of an industry and the workflows within that industry. 00:33:38.049 --> 00:33:43.229 And I think that's just my advice, you know, to a green tech founder, 00:33:43.389 --> 00:33:44.989 but also to any technology founder. 00:33:45.429 --> 00:33:47.989 First of all, try to sort that out. 00:33:49.529 --> 00:33:51.769 And then when it comes to pitching, you know. 00:33:53.435 --> 00:33:57.255 I think that's a classical thing. You can do spray and pray, 00:33:57.555 --> 00:34:03.815 but what are the chances that, you know, you are the one who's picked out of 00:34:03.815 --> 00:34:06.975 that inbox, you know, deal flow we are getting every day? 00:34:07.595 --> 00:34:11.455