Music:
Speaker1: Hello and welcome everybody. Welcome to the second interview together with my
Speaker1: guest, Christian Conrad, here, a former marketing director for Kellogg's in
Speaker1: the Dach region, Axie Unilever,
Speaker1: founder of Engagement Booster and author of Magical Company Culture in German,
Speaker1: Magische Unternehmenskultur, on his mission to have one million smiling employees by 2035.
Speaker1: And we've been recording for 50 minutes already, part one of our episode.
Speaker1: So let's do the second episode here and go a little bit into solution systems
Speaker1: and strategic impact of your work.
Speaker1: Can you share a story where client turned their employee employer brand around through cultural work?
Speaker0: I'll give you two very, very different examples.
Speaker0: The earliest example that I had was over 10 years ago when I worked with the Naturkundermuseum,
Speaker0: in Berlin and I supported the new then new general director of the Institute,
Speaker0: Professor Johannes Vogel and his team for two years.
Speaker0: And that was a fascinating journey because it was completely different.
Speaker0: I'm a company, corporate, whatever business guy working in this kind of scientific
Speaker0: community environment was fascinating and developing a new vision,
Speaker0: a new mission and seeing how visionary leadership could actually transform a very, very stale,
Speaker0: very kind of old fashioned organization
Speaker0: into a fantastic and inspiring organization now, 10 years later.
Speaker0: Um, it's very, I mean, I, I.
Speaker0: We, we gave them a little bit of an initial kickstart and then they, and they were running.
Speaker0: Um, but that was, that was a dramatic change of culture and employee,
Speaker0: um, attractiveness as well.
Speaker0: Um, and performance as well. And the other one is more recent.
Speaker0: Um, it's, it's, it's for a, for a, um, smallish company, but listed in the tech
Speaker0: docs in the environmental, um, in the, in the, um, renewable energies, uh, sector.
Speaker0: And we changed the net promoter score from six to 40 and 18 months.
Speaker0: Um, re creating a big shift in an employee brand and attractiveness as an employer
Speaker0: in a company that is in an environment that is fast growth,
Speaker0: um, double digit growth, um,
Speaker0: year by year of over 10%.
Speaker0: So that is the other story that I'm very proud of and I'm very excited about.
Speaker0: And that's the story that goes on.
Speaker1: Where do traditional corporate L&D programs fall short and how does your approach differ?
Speaker0: I think one thing that I've run loads of learning and development initiatives
Speaker0: and programs in a number of companies, big and small for the last 15, 17 years.
Speaker0: And a lot of them are, I would call them interventionists.
Speaker0: You run a training, you go away, you don't measure results.
Speaker0: In a sense, it's almost like an incentive. Oh, you're allowed to go to a training.
Speaker0: And there is very little follow-up and very little.
Speaker0: It frustrated me that me as someone who is a facilitator or a mentor or coach
Speaker0: in such a situation, you hardly ever get the long-term feedback.
Speaker0: You know, you get the feedback at the end of the session.
Speaker0: Oh, we loved the session. Well, what's actually the impact on any kind of metrics?
Speaker0: I was involved in some programs where I found that they did it a little better
Speaker0: because they didn't run a program over a year where there were several modules.
Speaker0: You know, so that's already an improvement.
Speaker0: And what I did as a result of that, I said, I want a program that actually measures
Speaker0: success and that is continuous because I want to see the impact.
Speaker0: I don't want to run trainings because I love trainings, but a training or a
Speaker0: coaching session is a part, a module of a program with a clear objective of driving engagement.
Speaker0: We measure it we run a certain sequence
Speaker0: we start at the top we break it down
Speaker0: into all into the leadership and then we
Speaker0: roll it out in the organization and then you can really see how how it works
Speaker0: and how it impacts so i like long-term projects rather than short interventions
Speaker0: because I think they have a bigger impact on results.
Speaker1: Actually, when I was in consulting, I also loved to do the long-running projects
Speaker1: for the very simple reason that there is a lot more impact and final results that you're seeing,
Speaker1: not to mention you get more acquainted with the matter,
Speaker1: with the company you're working for, with culture of them, like all the different
Speaker1: branches all across the globe and how they're actually interacting.
Speaker1: So you learn more and you can over time more and more tailor your approach to
Speaker1: this client. That's just personal experience here.
Speaker0: Exactly. That's another really good aspect that you can only tailor things to
Speaker0: a company if you know them well.
Speaker0: You know, so, um, if I only go in for a day or two,
Speaker0: it's not quite naturally, very superficial the knowledge that I have,
Speaker0: but for example, let's take that client in the renewable energy sector.
Speaker0: I know every single person in leadership. I know probably 60 to 80% of all employees
Speaker0: because I've had the, the.
Speaker0: Pleasure and the honor to work with them for seven years now.
Speaker0: So I know them and I can therefore tailor anything that I do for them much more
Speaker0: to their needs than I could if it was just someone I knew because we just met.
Speaker1: Do you now have a question because we're talking about like it feels like two
Speaker1: different perspectives, the number-driven management and emotional driven leadership.
Speaker1: So how does your Covey certified work on execution connect with emotional leadership?
Speaker1: Because for a lot of people, there's actually two pair of shoes,
Speaker1: like we would say in Germany.
Speaker1: But I do believe it is not.
Speaker0: Well, I believe it's not. I think I used to work for execution,
Speaker0: you know, the execution, um, model of, of, of, um, 40 X, uh, of, of coffee.
Speaker0: And that framework is at the back of my head when I run any kind of engagement
Speaker0: booster program, you know, the, the, the risk, the four disciplines are,
Speaker0: you know, have focus on one key big goal.
Speaker0: So the focus then is engagement.
Speaker0: You need to measure it. Otherwise, it won't be a wildly important goal in the 40X terminology.
Speaker0: You need to be able to have that kind of measure that you can track and then
Speaker0: focus on the lead measures.
Speaker0: That's discipline too, and the lead measures are the habits.
Speaker0: So the habits, connective listening, positive reinforcement,
Speaker0: and feed forward, those three habits, those three lead measures that are the lever that drives it.
Speaker0: And that makes the soft, and then you should track your results.
Speaker0: You should track also how you do the, how you practice the habits,
Speaker0: which is why I offer my clients an app, an AI-driven app that supports them
Speaker0: in developing those habits.
Speaker0: Because obviously, you know, you need something to help you to actually think
Speaker0: about, okay, am I actually doing
Speaker0: the habits or in all the everyday madness that we're all involved in?
Speaker0: So we need something that reminds you, something that gives you some impulses
Speaker0: automatically as you go.
Speaker0: But the key is, if you want to move it from something that's fluffy and soft
Speaker0: into something that's hard and measurable, it's about execution.
Speaker0: It's about what you do every day. It's about developing habits.
Speaker0: It's about changing your behavior as a leader.
Speaker0: And I had a beautiful example last week at a workshop with a client when one
Speaker0: guy from operations, so that was, you know, in production of a client, when he said, you know,
Speaker0: my colleague was at the training three weeks ago and he changed his behavior.
Speaker0: I said, oh, that's interesting. What did he change? Well, he used to interrupt
Speaker0: people in meetings all the time. And I noticed that since he's been to the training,
Speaker0: he doesn't do that anymore.
Speaker0: So that's a very tangible little story of someone taking that on board and saying,
Speaker0: okay, this was very useful for me.
Speaker0: I have a tool now and I've learned connective listening. And it's something
Speaker0: that we've practiced in the workshop and I'm applying it as a leader in my team.
Speaker0: And he leads about, I don't know, 30, 40 people, um, and the colleague and he,
Speaker0: you know, have sort of neighboring teams. That's why they interact a lot.
Speaker0: And within only two to two or three weeks, he already had a noticeable change
Speaker0: of behavior that had an impact.
Speaker1: There's also something I need to work on, not interrupting people.
Speaker1: I see. You coach leaders to trust first.
Speaker1: What are the business outcomes of that mindset?
Speaker0: Well, I'll tell you what inspired me.
Speaker0: It was probably the manager that inspired me most. When I worked at Kellogg's,
Speaker0: I was marketing director and our general manager was a Danish guy called Fleming.
Speaker0: And Fleming, when he presented himself to the organization, he put himself in
Speaker0: front of everybody and said, I've got some management principles.
Speaker0: And one of them is when I work with someone like you guys, I always give 100% trust.
Speaker0: And only if that trust is abused, I will deduct.
Speaker0: And for us, that was a huge paradigm shift because we came from a culture more
Speaker0: of fear where you could be really happy if you had 20% trust of the management.
Speaker0: So we had to cover our answers. We had to be careful. We had to hold back.
Speaker0: And we didn't feel we could do a lot. We were not empowered.
Speaker0: When Fleming told us, give you a hundred percent trust and only if you abuse
Speaker0: it, I deduct, he gave us a vote of confidence.
Speaker0: And that released a lot of energy in a turnaround situation.
Speaker0: Um, and the best business benefits, better ideas, more empowerment,
Speaker0: more initiative, um, more boldness, um.
Speaker0: Better, better, better, better execution, um, better teamwork.
Speaker0: And you could fit figures behind all of those in terms of business impact.
Speaker0: And I think anybody who's listening, who's running an organization,
Speaker0: probably knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker0: You know, if people actually believe in themselves, and I could feel it as,
Speaker0: I could feel that trust and confidence.
Speaker0: And the emotional signal that it gave me or the little voice in my head said,
Speaker0: wow, I don't want to disappoint him.
Speaker0: You know, that's a strong driver. You don't, someone who gives you that kind
Speaker0: of trust, you don't want to disappoint him.
Speaker0: You want to honor that trust. That drives intrinsic motivation.
Speaker0: It's not an extrinsic thing. It's not a bonus payment.
Speaker1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker1: I see. I actually, I think once or twice in my life, I had leadership like this
Speaker1: in different companies with different clients.
Speaker1: But that was really, really rare.
Speaker1: That is something I would really call management talent.
Speaker1: That's pretty cool. And actually, if your employees see you like that, you've already won.
Speaker1: I was wondering for like the closing words, what is your best advice for founders
Speaker1: or executives who want to start tomorrow?
Speaker0: I think the first thing that you should do is you should, if you want to really
Speaker0: start tomorrow, you go to 10 people in your organization and you ask them,
Speaker0: can I have five minutes of your time?
Speaker0: And you ask them that question, you know, you ask them exactly that question.
Speaker0: How likely is it that you will recommend our company to someone else?
Speaker0: You do your own little field research. You know, you don't do a big survey.
Speaker0: You do your own little field research.
Speaker0: And don't just pick the people who are fans anyway, but pick a couple,
Speaker0: you know, who you know are critical and ask them then, you know,
Speaker0: if they say, okay, I'm an aide.
Speaker0: I say, okay, good. what do I need to do or what do we need to do as a management
Speaker0: team, as an organization, so that you will give us a 9 or a 10 on that question.
Speaker0: How likely is it that we recommend X, Y, Z as an employer to others?
Speaker0: And you will find that you will get some really good ideas.
Speaker0: So that's the first step. The second step would be that you sit together,
Speaker0: evaluate what you've just found out in your little field research, and make a few,
Speaker0: prioritize three or four actions where you will improve the framework that you're working in.
Speaker0: Whatever it is, process improvement, nicer canteen, whatever,
Speaker0: you know, and pick small measures that you can execute within a maximum of a
Speaker0: quarter so that you see results. Don't do the big things, do the small things,
Speaker0: do many small things, regular.
Speaker0: Do like three, four things every quarter for four consecutive quarters.
Speaker0: And the third thing is start practicing those habits.
Speaker0: You know, if you, if you, if you say, okay, I don't know what connective listening
Speaker0: is, just type in active listening or empathic listening and to chat GPT and
Speaker0: tell, and ask to us, you know, let them tell you what you should train and what you should look for.
Speaker0: And then practice that. Be simple, you know.
Speaker0: Try to avoid judgment when you're listening. Repeat what you have heard to make
Speaker0: sure that the other person feels understood.
Speaker0: Focus on open-ended questions to start with what or how and avoid why and all the police questions.
Speaker0: So, you know, you do that and your world will change.
Speaker0: The world around you will change. You do that consistently, small things every day.
Speaker0: Positive reinforcement. Catch people doing things right rather than doing things wrong.
Speaker0: And ask for feet forward yourself. Is there something where you would like to
Speaker0: be better, where you want to improve? You're the CEO.
Speaker0: There is something that you want to improve.
Speaker0: Every week, one of the things that you want to improve on, you go to two or
Speaker0: three people and ask them, you know, I've got this thing I want to improve.
Speaker0: What tips do you have for me? No discussion. just accept their advice,
Speaker0: their tips, and that builds connection.
Speaker0: It shows you humility, but it also instills excellence in the organization,
Speaker0: the drive for continuous improvement.
Speaker0: So you do those three things. You do those three things, measure,
Speaker0: get some actions on the way, and start implementing those habits,
Speaker0: and you will transform your organization within 12 months.
Speaker1: Final question. What advice when you started out a management career in more
Speaker1: classical companies, what advice would you have loved to have at the point you started?
Speaker0: I think that I would have loved to have had,
Speaker0: those lessons that I learned from Fleming 10 years later, straight from the bat.
Speaker0: You know, the thing that you give trust initially, that you try to focus on
Speaker0: the strengths and the things that you're good at, that your team is good at,
Speaker0: I think that would have been great.
Speaker1: I see. For our audience, I was wondering which leadership behavior made you
Speaker1: feel seen and empowered at work.
Speaker1: Drop us a DM or comment on YouTube or wherever you are following us.
Speaker1: We might feature it in our next episode.
Speaker1: Christian, thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you as a guest.
Speaker1: We may add to our audience that we are now recording for almost one hour and 20 minutes.
Speaker1: The final episodes will be a little bit shorter.
Speaker1: But nonetheless, we will be on Substack for a little bit exclusive deep dive
Speaker1: for our paying customers there.
Speaker1: And thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you so long here.
Speaker0: Thanks a lot, Jan. Thanks a lot for the great interview.
Speaker1: Totally my pleasure. Have a good day. bye bye cheers bye bye
Music: